ninjabee.com

Ok, Stay kinda threw down the gauntlet so I shall pick it up and run with it. Here is my take on digital downloads. This is MY opinions and my opinions only. My opinions are based on a LONG history of gaming dating back to TRS-80's. I am an old fart as far as gaming goes, 49 is ancient as dirt according to many on these forums and in the gaming community as a whole. Given that, one of my favorite comeback lines to these smack talking preteens and teens is "Shutit. I own cars older than you. Talk to me when you are old enough to have pimples."

Given that, your opinions are likely to be quite different than mine. Keep this thread civil. I will respect your opinions and I expect you to respect mine.

So, here is my pros and cons to digital distribution of games and software.

Digital Distribution Pros:

• There are no disk pressing costs for the distributor
• There are no packaging costs for the distributor
• There are no shipping costs, time delays or warehousing issues for the distributor
• Its faster to market
• It has the potential to kill the used games market meaning that everyone who wants the game has to buy a "New" copy.
• End users don't have to worry about storing/protecting physical media like disks
• End users don't have to worry about backups
• End users don't have to swap disks to play a game
• End users can re-download as long as the game is still available on the DD service should they experience system failure
• No real physical stoage space required for games. Physical games require physical space to store them (shelves/boxes, etc)

Digital Distribution Cons:

• Users get no printed manual
• They require storage space on whatever platform the game is for (PC/Console)
• Large games require substantial download speeds (fast internet connections) or long download times
• For consoles, there is no transportability of the game. You can't take it to a friend's house to play
• For consoles, the game is licensed to ONE console
• No disk for the end user to re-sell to friends or used game stores to help re-coup game costs
• Almost impossible to give DD games as Christmas or Birthday gifts
• End users risk not being able to download a game from the download service in the future if the game is removed from the service (this KILLS the game dead in its tracks)
• For PCs, users are required to install additional software like Steam to allow them to play the games they paid for
• In nearly every circumstance, DD games are the same price as retail packaged games, where is the savings for the end user?
• Re-downloading a game after a system failure requires the same time it did the first time. Physical media is instantly available.
• Many DD services like Steam and Live require contracts and using APIs by the developer and some restrict the game to their specific service
• No used game market so end user always pay full price for a game

In my opinion, DD games are a win for the developer/distributor and a loose for the end user. The end user gives up nearly all rights to resellability, transportability and future access to the game. Sure there are a few pros for the end user but overwhelmingly the cons, for me at least, out weigh the pros as an end user.

I frequently dig thorough my old games and re-play them. If Command & Conquer or Warcraft were originally a DD, I doubt they would still be on Steam 15 years later. I would have lost access to the games I paid for decades ago. At some point Steam has to purge old games as their cost to store them becomes unprofitable.

It completely chaps my ass that, when one of my granddaughters or myself downloads a game off Live, its licensed to THAT console ONLY. All users on that console can play it but I can't copy it to another of my consoles (I own 2 360's and likely will add a 3rd one soon) and all users can play it there. On the other console, ONLY the original purchaser can play it. With a retail DVD, I can take it to ANY console at ANY time and ANY user can play it.

The aforementioned Pros/Cons are pretty general in nature. Each game will have its own subset of those and each developer handles the DD differently and treats the end user differently. The only problems I have with buying the Ninja Bee games off XBLA, I already stated which is the licensing issue. NB games are small, quick to download and FUN to play. There is little need for printed manuals so there are very few cons to NB games as DD games go.

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"Its what you do in a heard, you help each other." - Manny from Ice Age.
"Understanding women isn't about knowing what button to push, its knowing when not to push them" - Me

On the subject of printed manuals, game manuals have become less and less lately. Most console game manuals are nothing more than a 1 page insert similar to the DVD inserts (which in some cases are gone completely now for DVDs).

Most games have their controls and tutorials in the game now. While I love a good game manual, I've found most of the games I buy lately the manual is a waste of time.

As for reselling the game, well, that's a pretty hot topic these days in and of itself. When you resell it, the developer gets squat and are missing out on a potential sale of a new copy to someone. It's definitely a legitimate "con" for digital distribution, but I think its one that has the potential to have positive implications in the industry if developers are able to make more money off their titles because of limited used sales. Perhaps even it could end up resulting in reduced costs for new titles (probably wishful thinking on my part, but I'm sure there are some developers who would lower their new retail cost if they knew that every copy sold is coming back to them).

I disagree about DD games being hard to give as gifts. Steam allows you to gift titles and I think XBL actually allows you to as well (though it might only be MSP for XBL). Also, for XBLA titles, many of them are available in stores as a card with a code on it. Sure it doesn't seem as impressive as a gift of a retail box copy, but I think that mindset is slowly breaking down.

As for download speeds, at least for new releases, Steam often has a pre-download option where you can download the title before it is released to the stores, but it remains locked until the release date. This actually can be better than retail, because unless the retail store is doing a midnight release, you can predownload and be ready to go at 12:00 AM on the release date instead of 9:00 AM. Of course, that's probably not going to affect a ton of people, but it still is something to consider.

Most of your other con concerns seem pretty legitimate and accurate. I know for XBL though, all of the things downloaded, even stuff on system lunch years ago, are still available to download. I would think that anything they were going to remove they would give you the option to make a backup copy locally.

Cost is an issue. DD costs should be less than retail costs. Right now, for new releases they generally aren't. However, for older titles, Steam often has tons of sales and many of the titles if they are still available in retail form, tend to be cheaper to download.

I don't want to see retail discs go away completely, but I could certainly back a digital only platform. My personal biggest concern is hard drive space.

I do agree that printed manuals have shrunk to the size of a play list on a CD now but there is no reason they should be other than cost.

Reselling a game does not generate revenue directly for a developer. It does get the game into another pair of hands to see what the company can do and offers another person the ability to purchase the DLC addons for the game. While the direct sale does not generate revenue, I think in some cases it does generate revenue for the company in additional sales if the game is good enough to impress the end user or the end user wants the DLC that goes with it.

There is no steam for the Xbox. As far as the cards for game on XBLA, I have yet to see one in a store. Not saying they aren't there but I have not seen one to buy. Point cards, yes, but just point cards. Giving someone a point card and telling them that its for AKfK is like giving someone a Target gift card and telling them its for a specific set of bed sheets. There is simply somthing missing in the whole process. FYI, I don't buy gift cards and hate them when I receive them. I prefer to put some thought into a gift rather than simply throwing a gift card at them that says "I have no idea what to get you and don't have time to figure it out".

As for download speeds, its irrelevant when you download it, even if its pre-release. You still need a fast connection or you WAIT. Its still a lot of bandwidth for decent sized games. Some ISPs charge you by how much you download/upload similar to minutes on cell phones. If you are in a rural area, dialup isn't going to cut it for DD. Neither is extremely limited bandwith ISPs. I have 10mb cable, speeds are good for me. I do realize, as a web developer, not everyone has these speeds.

As for everything still being available on XBL. Not true. Dash of Destruction is no longer available. I know because I was going to download it to my 2nd xbox and couldn't find it to download any more. The girls love that game and they can only play it on my main xbox. If that drive dies, the game is gone for me. That is one of the risks of DD.

I don't want to see retail disks go away either. I also don't want to prevent DD from happening. I think CHOICE should be the key here. As a consumer, I would love to choose where I get it. At present, I do have that choice. I could have bought STO off steam or from gamestop and get a retail disk. I chose gamestop. But, I do respect the desire and the need for you to be able to choose steam.

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"Its what you do in a heard, you help each other." - Manny from Ice Age.
"Understanding women isn't about knowing what button to push, its knowing when not to push them" - Me

I think in the case of Dash of Destruction it was listed as a limited time promotion. If you already downloaded on an system, you can still redownload it by accessing your download history. I'll have to double check that, but that's usually how it is for a title if they do decide to unlist it. It might not be available for new "purchases".

The XBLA cards I was referring to, I've seen at Target I think and in some Gamestops. They really aren't any different than giving a gift card though.

I fully agree that choice is the most important thing. Personally, I like having a disc or physical copy of a game, and like you, I don't really like giving gift cards either.

Oh man, I am so sorry I missed this thread. I will definitely join in. Unfortunately, I'm supposed to be fixing bugs in AWoK right now, and juse will kick me in the ribs if he seems me posting long anti-retail rants instead...

OK I can't resist at least throwing one thing out there, to contribute:

I realized just a few days ago that a "pro" for digital distribution that I had forgotten was Saving The Planet! Less polution and physical resource waste for the actual packaging as well as the production and distribution process.

Huh. That thought never actually crossed my mind at all. That's a pretty good point.

Aren't Ubisoft going to start using recycled plastic for their game cases and drop the manual or make it digital?

Personally i would still buy a physical copy simply because a few things i've bought digital have been deleted from the servers they were on and i can't get them anymore. I buy the occasional arcade game (PC games like match 3, or hidden object) and the company i used to buy them from has closed down so i can't redownload them anymore or even activate them if i reinstall them.
As for console games i only buy new anyway unless the game i want is no longer available new and i have no option but used.
I've suffered PC hard drive failures in the past and the odd virus which forced me to do clean installs and its been enough for me to never consider digital options when a physical version exists.
I would hate gaming to go digital only because it would limit who could game. I would much prefer both physical and digital distributions to be available.

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Its a brilliant point but its a bit backwards and likely not to be true. It sounds good and warm and fuzzy like saying global warming is all human's fault and saying we all should stop using fossil fuels. There are many reasons to use renewable resources, global warming isn't one of them.

Unfortunately you overlook the other side of the coin. Digital distribution requires energy to distribute, store, heat/cool server rooms, increasing internet backbone speeds, all of which uses a hell of a lot of energy and must be maintained for as long as the game is to be available.

Physical distribution is produced ONCE and requires no further energy or material consumption for the life of the disk. The disk remains usable until its physically destroyed. It can also be recycled into other products.

Here is a prime example. Last year I dug out my old Command & Conquer disks to play them again. I bought them in 1995. Imagine that if C&C were distributed via digital download back then as well as CDs. How much energy would the DD have consumed running servers, air conditioners, routers etc for 15 years? How about all the heavy metals, toxic compounds including freon (an ozone depleting gas), iron, steel, aluminum and copper that would have been consumed in producing the servers, racks, battery backups, air conditioning systems etc. Some of the servers and other hardware is recyclable but it also contains many many hazardous materials like lead, mercury and freon which require additional energy and resources to handle. One up side is that the servers can be re-used for other games if the game is a short term lifecycle.

Compare that to the energy consumption for producing a CD. Very little energy is required for producing the CD. As for consumables for the CD, that would be recyclable plastic, micron thin layers of aluminum and paper for the box, manual and other packaging. All of this material is recyclable. Once produced, a CD requires NO further energy to maintain its existence nor any additional consumables.

While the initial release requires less energy assuming the servers and infrastructure already exist but if they don't then physicals win here too. Its the energy over time that still make physical distributions more "green" than DD. As for less pollution, DD may be more green but it may not be either. It depends on the physical transport method used for boxed packages and the energy source used for the servers. Nuclear, hydro, solar and wind electricity does produce less pollution but there is also coal and other consumable burning power plants. All of these power plants must continue to power the servers for the entire time the game is to be distributed. Not so of CDs. Once they get to where they are going, pollution stops.

And before you say that the servers and internet are going to exist anyway, you can make the same counter argument about trucks and rail. They are going to exist anyway as well.

So, you can argue the "green" nature of DD but it is not entirely true.

I am very much enjoying the debate. A lot of good points are being brought forward.

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"Its what you do in a heard, you help each other." - Manny from Ice Age.
"Understanding women isn't about knowing what button to push, its knowing when not to push them" - Me

Wow, that's a pretty impressive counterargument! You could even count a tiny part of the cost of creating and maintaining the hard drives that the end-users store the game on (on every single machine out there that's storing the game in question.)

But I don't agree with this one part...



Yeah, I don't think that's true. If there's less physical stuff to distribute, there will be less need for trucks, and fewer will be made. Sure, there will still BE trucks, just not as many of them.

So, I guess to be fair we'd do a fancy analysis of the two sets of environmental impacts:

On the digital distribution side: server hardware, energy costs, air conditioning... everything else Wolfie brought up.

On the physical distribution side: the cost of physical production.

Of course the digital-hosting impact estimates need to be divided up a lot (one server can hold a lot of games, one air conditioning unit serves for a lot of servers...) I'm not sure the digital distribution side is clearly more impactful on the environment, but I'm certainly unqualified to make a serious judgement.

I'm also thinking about the recycling issue more. I don't think everything in a CD can be recycled, and it costs energy to do so, whereas there isn't a recycling step necessary for a digital download.

For digital downloads there are storage device issues. So every time a new storage device is created and we discard the old storage device now becomes an environmental issue.

Then you have to think about who can access digital media as some people can only get physical media. (you have an e-mail on this Stay) So if people can get or have access then physical media will be standard till this can be accounted for.

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AKFK - 200/200 as of 04May09

True, but I have to wonder what a careful comparison would tell us - depending on the device, you can potentially store quite a few downloaded games, so you have to divide up the impact of that one device to get a "per game" impact, like the impact of the disc and packaging of a single game bought at retail.



Absolutely. I think most of us agree that some day "everyone" will have internet access. (Not really everyone, but close enough). In the mean time physical media distribution is basically the only option for a bunch of people.

The funny thing is there are many distinct assertions that can be made and defended in this area. For example:

* Physical media will never go away.

Most people won't argue with this. I, for instance, agree that there will continue to be some games distributed in physical media for a very long time.

* Digital distribution is better than physical distribution

This one is hotly contested.

* Digital distribution is going to "win" very soon.

This one is also hotly contested, and whoever's arguing it has to have a pretty good definition of what it means to "win". Do they mean in North America only? Do they mean more than half of software sales will be downloaded? Are they including other media?

So, in case you care, here's my personal assertion:

* A year and a half from now, Gamestop will be out of business, or will have changed to an online model.

Aggressive? You bet! It wouldn't be any fun if I said "10 years from now".

Why Gamestop? Because their business model is almost entirely based on a service (providing games) that can and will be replaced by the Internet.

I make no such assertion about stores like Walmart, for instance, because they still have a strong reason to exist beyond distributing software.

That said, I have suffered a huge blow to my confidence on this topic after hearing from our friends in New Zealand. I have to think about that a bit. I usually consider myself a pretty enlightened fellow, and suddenly I realize I've been a bit ethnocentric in my thinking. Maybe my assertion only works for North America...

I still haven't collected up my notes on the pros and cons of digital distribution (I'm working crazy hours trying to get AWoK out the door, I promise), but I was just looking through them and I found this beauty that I think I have to share now:

* I know a retail game store employee who used to stick the store pens down his pants and rub them on his privates and then snicker when people used them to sign their receipts.

True story!

But how many people had clean hands before they used the store pen, and as a result what has he really been rubbing on his privates

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Haha, infections for everyone! Hooray!

So, a friend of mine found this very interesting study:

https://microsite.accenture.com/sustain ... of_ESD.pdf

which clearly comes down on the side of digital distribution for low environmental impact.

I think it's even missing some impact on the physical distribution side. This article seems to be about shipping directly to the customer, so we aren't taking into account the impact of running the physical Gamestop store, airconditioning it, paving the parking lot, etc.